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« Teachable, or a Defender? | Main | The Journey Continues »

January 18, 2006

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» Waving or Drowning?: Why Models? from / musing / struggling / dreaming /
Mike at WorD posted this excellent quote from Orbiting the Giant Hairball by Gordon MacKenzie. Its a cogent analysis of how we can allow our models of the world to blind us to the world. Why models? Well, in an effort to cope with the inco... [Read More]

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Tim

Huh?

Mike

Where you see the words "infinite reality/reality" substitute "God". And where you see "theoretical" substitute "theological".

Now, read it out loud and see if that helps.

george

Ok tried that, and it doesn't help at all.
Brings us back to a question I posed to you before Mike; do you believe the Bible is God's Word and the final authority in all things?

Is the Bible, in your view, one of these "models" just a coping device, or is it in fact God's truth that our entire lives need to be fully rooted in, in order for us to live out our designed purpose; to bring glory to God?

You know my view by now, it is the latter, I'm still curious about your view.

How can one be sure of their faith yet have more questions than answers?

Heather

okay i am jumping headfirst in here - i'm commenting on the last question you raised George. I can only comment on myself, the more faith I have, the more questions I have. Maybe I am the only one that feels that way. I also think God rejoices at our questions - and some questions we won't have answers to till we get there.

Wes

How can one NOT have more questions than answers...seems like that is exercising faith in our mysterious God. In my soul, too many answers reduces faith...especially too many quick, "this is how it really is" kind of answers. What page is this piece of hair (what you quoted) on in "Orbiting/Hairball?" It's also one of my favorite books.

Tim

OK Mike - now I get it. Sorry to be a bit dense sometimes.

I'll probably regret it, but I'm going to have a stab at responding to George. George raises the question about whether the Bible is just one of our models or whether it is God's Word, God's truth etc.

I'd like to sidestep this question and challenge the assumption that any of us actually treat the Bible in that way.

For instance, George has told us a number of times that he does treat the Bible in that way. He has also told us (forgive me, brother George, if I'm misquoting you here) that he believes that our one hope for salvation is through faith in the shed blood of Christ on the Cross.

Well, forgive me, but I would suggest that the model of 'salvation through faith alone' (which often in evangelical subculture means 'salvation through praying a sinner's prayer alone') isn't unanimously supported in the Bible. Jesus says, 'Not everyone who calls me "Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven'. What is 'the will of my Father in heaven'? Well, the verse in question falls at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, and the Sermon has spelled out God's will - reconciliation, love for enemies, sexual purity, forgiveness, simple living, not judging others, and so on. Further on in Matthew, Jesus tells us that the ones who will inherit the Kingdom will be the ones who feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoners and so on.

Or take another question - is it right to eat meat offered to idols (not a pressing question in modern Canada, but a real live issue in NT times!). Paul's answer seems to be 'Yes, but don't flaunt it in front of people with a weak conscience'. The author of Revelation, on the other hand, says a clear 'No' in chapters two and three.

So you see, George, the Bible is actually a very complex boook, and in practice all Christians choose an interpretive model for it - whether your interpretive model is traditional Catholic theology, or Lutheranism (which makes 'justification by faith' the key to everything), or popular evangelicalism. You have done this yourself; the principles you have advanced in your comments on this pages actually ignore certain bits of scripture.

So - granted that we have to choose an interpretive framework for the Bible, which one should we choose? Here's my answer, and it relates to George's question 'Is the Bible the Word of God?' My answer (I speak in hushed tones) is 'THE BIBLE NEVER CLAIMS TO BE THE WORD OF GOD'. The phrase 'the Word of God' is used in the pages of the New Testament to describe the Gospel message, or the preaching of the apostles, but NEVER the written text. And the Word of God par excellence, according to the New Testament, is Jesus himself - see John chapter one and Hebrews chapter one. He is the final Word, and everything in the scriptures needs to be judged according to his life and teaching.

So I'm up front about this. I challenge anyone who says that they accept the Bible as the inerrant and infallible rule of life and faith. What about the commands to stone a son who curses his father, or a woman caught in adultery? What about the commands not to charge interest on loans? What about using a stained bedsheet as evidence that a bride was a virgin on her wedding night? What about women wearing a head covering in church? What about writing the accusations against someone down on a parchment, and then washing the ink into a mix and giving it to the accused to drink as a test about their guilt or not (if they swell up, they're probably guilty)?

None of us follows literally the teaching of every bit of the Bible. We all choose an interpretive framework for it. My interpetive framework is Jesus (because he's the Word of God), not Paul.

But of course, George will have an answer to my argument, and the discussion will probably go on for a long time. I, however, will give him the last word.

Cheers!

Tim

Mike

A couple quick ones...

George - no, I don't believe the Bible is one of these models; I believe it is the written word of God. What many of us have done with it... that's where the models come in.

Wes - I'm at school and can't tell you what page it's on, but it's the page (or two) just before the yellow legal pad section, closer to the end. Love that book!

George/Tim - Tim and I would disagree on some things he's said, but I'm also uncomfortable with the use of the word "inerrant". (George - I know you didn't use it here.)

I had my first lecture on textual criticism yesterday, so now I'm an expert on these things. 150,000 to 250,000 "disparities" between the 6000 different manuscripts available, and not an original among them! Inerrant is a meaningless (not to mention non-biblical) term.

And once again the comments slip away from the original intent of the post...

Any thoughts on models from anyone?

george

"So I'm up front about this. I challenge anyone who says that they accept the Bible as the inerrant and infallible rule of life and faith."

"My interpetive framework is Jesus (because he's the Word of God), not Paul."

Tim where do you get your framework about Jesus? Is it from the Gospels? Would that part then be inerrant and infallible? When you read the "red letters" of Jesus in the gospels is what He said inerrant and infallible? Do you believe that everything that Jesus said that is contained in the Gospels is true?

Jesus says this in John 3 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So Tim, when Jesus says that and that is preached to the world, but the world rejects that and want us to believe that all roads lead to God and not just Jesus Christ alone, can we still believe that what Jesus said about that is the truth?

Hey, I'm not as articulate as you for sure, and as you point out you have known the Lord much longer than me, which is why I value your input.

See Mike believes (at least this is my impression of what Mike believes) that a good humanitarian guy like Stephen Lewis, his hero, because of all the good he does, is ok and is probably ok with God also because he has such a heart for the poor and for the Aids victims and all that. Yet Stephen Lewis rejects Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ tells us that he who does not believe in Him is condemmed.

So what do you believe about all that Tim?

Thanks for your comments and I look forward to your response.

Mike

Rather than ask you boys to take your conversation offline (but I will eventually), I'll remark on a couple of things you've said, George.

"See Mike believes..." (Yes, I know you qualified the statement, but you made it never the less.)

"Stephen Lewis rejects Jesus Christ..."

George, that you know what goes on in my mind and Stephen Lewis' heart is nothing short of amazing.

Tim

No need to take my conversation off line, Mike - I'd already said that I would give George the last word.

george

Why not just answer the questions Tim? You give this long explanation then aren't willing to back it up, what's up with that?

Is Jesus Christ the only way? As a professing follower of Christ that should not be a tough question.

If one rejects Jesus Christ is he condemmed already as Jesus said?

Do you think its important that we the so called followers of Jesus Christ get those things right, that we are very sure about them, so that our witness might have some power?
How is God going to honour what we do if we can't even stand up for the truth of who Jesus Christ is and what He said. There are too many lame professing followers of Jesus Christ who are so afraid of offending anyone that they aren't willing to stand for the truth of what Christ Himself said.

We want the world to love us so much so we present this watered down version of what Christianity is all about. What did Jesus have to say about the lukewarm church Tim?

I was just reading John 15 and was struck again by this 18"When the world hates you, remember it hated me before it hated you. 19The world would love you if you belonged to it, but you don't. I chose you to come out of the world, and so it hates you."

Wow.

Its time to really stand for Jesus Christ Tim and Mike. He is the only way and the world desperately needs to come to that knowledge. The sooner we all, as His professing followers, make up our minds that we will take a stand for Jesus Christ no matter what, the sooner we can impact our world for Him.

I'm researching some things about revival and how it happens and one thing is clear, it starts with us, the professing followers of Jesus Christ.

He loves us so much, He has done so much for us by going to the cross to pay our sin debt in full, the very least we can do is honour Him in ALL we do and stand firmly for Him rooted in the Truth.

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