Willard on Grace

Here's a quote that's going to make it into my latest paper...

"In most churches we're not only saved by grace, we're paralyzed by it. We're afraid to do anything that might be a "work." The funny thing is we will preach to people for an hour that they can't do anything to be saved, and then sing to them for a half an hour trying to get them to do something. This is confusing. People need to see that action is a receptacle for grace, not a substitute for it. Grace is God acting in our lives to do things we can't do on our own. Grace is not opposed to effort; it's opposed to earning."
Dallas Willard, in The Apprentices

Comments

[Elaine]

Thank you for sharing the quote and link, both of which were enlightening for this "apprentice." I think I am beginning to better understand why this particular term is used.

I hope this isn't off topic, but does anyone have any recommendations on which Dallas Willard book to read first? My reading list is growing exponentially and I would appreciate opinions.

[Tim]

Elaine, I think his most important one is 'The Divine Conspiracy'. The central section, which is an exposition of the Sermon on the Mount, is particularly provocative!

Mike et al, I have a question about Willard's wording here.I think it is coloured by his evangelical background. Whe he says 'In most churches', I think he ought to say 'in most evangelical churches'. Many nonevangelical churches are on the other end of the spectrum - little confidence in the grace of God at all. Spoken from experience by an Anglican pastor!

[george]

But Tim, you yourself espouse salvation by works in certain situations, ie: after listening to Stephen Lewis suggesting that according to Matthew 25 he would enter into the kingdom because of what he has done.

I think it might be helpful if you explain your position on that a bit farther as it it a huge issue, one that we need clarity on. Either our works help us in obtaining salvation or they don't. God's Word clearly teaches that they don't yet you suggest otherwise. Exactly what is your position Tim?

[Tim]

My 'position' (I hate that word) is that I am content with the paradox as Paul expresses it:

'Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed - not only now, in my presence, but now much more in my absence - continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfil his good purpose' (Phil.2:12-13).

I think the key sentence in Mike's quote from Dallas Willard above is the last: 'Grace is not opposed to effort; it's opposed to earning'. I am not a legalist, George; I do not think that anyone earns salvation. Salvation - being rescued from enemies too strong for us, healed, preserved, kept safe, transformed (all meanings of the Greek soter) - is always God's gift. But I am a believer in effort, and. according to the verses I quoted above, so is Paul.

But let's not argue about this, okay? It always seems to be a colossal waste of time. I love the Lord Jesus Christ and want to serve him; so do you. I'm happy to leave it at that, and feel no obligation to try to 'correct' you on points I might disagree with.

[Caroline]

For those of us who see ourselves within the stream of ongoing, emergent conversations there shouldn't be a problem with grace and works

the one (works) emerges from the other whilst the graceis made real in works.

Ah, all we need is a little reading in social constructionism and it all becomes plain! (heavy dose of English irony there! :-)

[Elaine]

Tim, thank you for the book recommendation. I look forward to reading this one...to start. I suspect I'll be reading more of Dallas Willard's writing.

I appreciate -- and agree with your comments on grace and works/effort. Caroline's too.

[Mike]

Elaine, and others considering delving into Willard's stuff:

I've heard him speak a few times now, and I can tell you he is one of those freakishly brilliant people out there. When discussing The Divine Conspiracy, he said that he "had been told" some people found it a tough read, so he put a couple of his grad students to work on Dallas Willard's Study Guide to The Divine Conspiracy, by Jan Johnson, Keith J. Matthews and Dallas Willard.

I highly recommend getting the guide and the book!

[george]

Tim, that quote from Paul is hardly a paradox, he's writing to believers. If you read the first 11 verses its all about being in Christ.

So to get back to your comment about someone like Stephen Lewis. Here's a quote fom your post on your blog after you listened to Stephen Lewis at the U of A :

"At one point Stephen Lewis said, “I am not a religious man”. And yet I believe that when Stephen Lewis meets Jesus on the other side of the stable door, Jesus will say to him, “All the service that you gave so selflessly to better the human condition on earth I will take unto myself”. Or, in the words of scripture, “Whenever you did it for the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did it for me”."

So I'm trying to learn from you exactly what you mean by that. I'm sure you will agree its a huge point, it speaks to salvation. You are saying there that, even though Stephen Lewis admits that he is not a religious person and certainly not a follower of Jesus Christ, because of all the good that he has done, that Jesus will bring him into the kingdom of heaven.

How is that anything other than salvation by works?

Its a huge point because if you are right about that Tim, that's a huge issue. Because then all those people who believe that their good will outweigh their bad and believing they are good with God and on their way to heaven - all those people will find great comfort in what you are putting forward.

There's no need for them to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. All they have to do is to strive to be like Stephen Lewis because he's so good you believe Jesus is taking him. Where exactly do you draw the line with that?

How much good would one have to do?

If you choose to just dismiss my questions as coming from someone who just wants to argue with you - you can do that, but you would be so wrong. These questions are so huge and people's eternal destiny is at stake.

I'm challenging you Tim to back up your belief about this. Where does that belief come from because it sure doesn't square with God's Word and the teachings of who you profess to serve.

Jesus said He is the only way and that no one can come to the Father but by Him. To all who have received Him he gave the right to become children of God. He who has the Son has life, He who does not have the Son does not have life.

Is all of that null and void now in 2006 and we can just get good like Stephen Lewis and get in?

And one final question Tim: WHY THE CROSS?
Why did God love us so much that He gave His only Son to die for us? Was it so that in 2006 we can now ignore that and just believe that all good people will go to heaven?

If He died so that we might be saved, what am I saved from, what are you saved from?

I'd certainly welcome your thoughts also Mike.

[Tim]

George, the reason I quoted Philippians 2:12-13 (which, as you so correctly point out, is written to believers) is that Mike's original post - and my original response, which you commented on - were about believers. You are the one who has dragged Stephen Lewis back into this.

The issue which Mike and I are discussing is not whether or not virtuous unbelievers may one day get a surprise through the generosity of God. The issue was the relationship between grace and action in the Christian community.

The difference between me and you, George, is that you believe in a theological system, and whenever you see doctrine that falls outside that system, you feel compelled to come down like a ton of bricks on the person who is speaking it. I would submit to you, my friend, that there is a group of people like that in the Gospels. They're called Pharisees. They see themselves as the self-appointed guardians of the truth, and whenever they see Jesus diverting from that truth, they start wagging their fingers at him, just like you do with Mike and me.

I am not a believer in a theological system (unless it's called 'The Apostles' Creed'). I'm a follower of a person, the Lord Jesus Christ, and if at times his statements seem paradoxical to me (e.g. different verses in which he seems to imply that entering the kingdom is about believing, in one place, or 'doing the will of my Father in heaven' in another) I feel no compulsion to correct his theology and make a neat little theoological system out of it. Go ahead, if you want to. I know some people need that sort of safety. The Jesus I follow is not that sort of tame Lion.

[Mike]

My Thoughts, George? Well, my first thought is I wish you wouldn't use my blog to challenge other followers. However, since you seem to prefer confrontation as your form of communication, let's turn one of your questions around for a moment.

You ask how much good must someone do to "earn" their salvation.

So to reverse that: Let's take someone who is "saved" in your eyes. (I'm not sure what that means for you... let's assume they've prayed the Sinners Prayer, and have been baptized. Feel free to fill this desription out.)

So, how little good must they do to maintain their membership in the People of God?

[Mike]

PS. Tim, I wanted to respond to your earlier comment (about Willard talking about evangelical churches.

I think you're right, although evangelical may be too restrictive a word. I think he's referring too those churches who actively claim God's grace then do a lousy job of teaching us how to live that out. I heard him say that there isn't a church in America (we were in the US at the time!) that teaches discipleship. Not one.

[george]

I don't understand why you guys get so defensive when someone comes along and challenges you a bit.

I understand your position a bit better I think Tim, you really are saying that people can be saved by their good works. They can reject Christ but as long as they are good (well maybe as good as Stephen Lewis) they get in. Totally contary to Scriptures and Christ's teachings but you would have people believe that. And you didn't answer the question: Why the cross?

Mike: I'd love to dialogue with you about salvation issues. I've been asking you in the past to share your beliefs, you have yet to do that. What are the things you are sure of? What is it exactly that you believe? As an example where do you come up with a belief that there might not be a hell. Things like that.

To deal with your sarcasm about people who are "saved" I would say this. When we receive Christ as our Lord and Saviour and are re-born and know that we have eternal life everything, absolutely everything in our lives will change. If we are truly saved there will be evidences of that salvation in our lives.

See if you might agree with the following:
EVIDENCE THAT NEITHER PROVE NOR DISPROVE ONE'S FAITH
1. Visible morality
2. Intellectual knowledge
3. Religious involvement
4. Active Ministry
5. Conviction of Sin
6. Assurance
7. Time of Decision

THE FRUIT/PROOFS OF AUTHENTIC/TRUE CHRISTIANITY
1. Love for God
2. Repentance from sin
3. Genuine humility
4. Devotion to God's glory
5. Continual prayer
6. Selfless love
7. Seperation from the world
8. Spiritual growth
9. Obedient living
10 Hunger for God's Word
11 Transformation of life

If the first list is true of a person and the second false there is cause to question the validity of one's profession of faith. Yet if the second list is true, then the top list will be also.

What do you guys think about that? Does that make sense to you?

Now for the CONDUCT OF THE GOSPEL (I get more and more convicted about this especially after reading stuff like what Tim would say about salvation by works ie Stephen Lewis)

THE GOSPEL
1. Proclaim it
2. Defend it
3. Demonstrate it
4. Share it
5. Suffer for it
6. Don't hinder it
7. Be not ashamed
8. Preach it
9. Be empowered
10. Guard it

[george]

One more thing Tim, you said this:"The difference between me and you, George, is that you believe in a theological system, and whenever you see doctrine that falls outside that system, you feel compelled to come down like a ton of bricks on the person who is speaking it. I would submit to you, my friend, that there is a group of people like that in the Gospels. They're called Pharisees. They see themselves as the self-appointed guardians of the truth, and whenever they see Jesus diverting from that truth, they start wagging their fingers at him, just like you do with Mike and me."

Its interesting you would call me a Pharisee. Its almost like you are saying we can't be sure of God's revealed Truth. That if I suggest to you that what you say does not square with God's Word that somehow makes me a Pharisee.

To make light of an important issue of how one can be saved is to make a mockery of the cross Tim. There is only one way. I didn't say that, Jesus Christ said that, so when you go against that you go against the teachings of Christ.

By your logic then Christ would also be a Pharisee as He said He is the only way and that if we do not have Him we do not have life.

If you think that makes me a Pharisee to call you on that well so be it, but I know what Christ said and I'll take His word over yours any day.

The bottom line is tthat people need to know the Truth, the whole Truth.

[Mike]

George - I'm at school right now and hope to get to this later. Just for the record, however, I was not being sarcastic. You and I clearly have differing views of the meaning of "saved", and rather than transfer my views onto you, I'm trying to figure out where you stand on the issue so I can address your point of view.

[george]

Fair enough Mike, I'll look forward to your definition of what it means to be "saved".

[Tim]

I have no desire to spell out my beliefs so that you can shoot them down, George. If you want to know my view about why the Cross, feel free to buy and read my book about the basics of Christianity, 'Starting at the Beginning' (ABC Publishing, 2004, ISBN 1-55126-416-1, available from Anglican Book Centre, 80 Hayden Street, Toronto, ON M4Y 3G2) where you will find, I suspect, that my view on the Cross is very much like yours.

By the way, I most emphatically do not believe in justification by works. If you had bothered to read my previous post without filtering it through your ironclad theological system, you would have noticed the way I phrased the issue - 'whether virtuous unbelievers might one day get a surprise through the generosity of God'. But I say again, the issue Mike has set before us is not how Stephen Lewis can enter the Kingdom. The issue he has set before us is the relationship between grace and action in the Christian community. Could you for goodness' sake leave your Stephen Lewis 'King Charles' Head'at the door and address the issue that the host of this blog has asked us to address?

By the way, George, when are you setting up your own blog? I'm looking forward to visiting it - and commenting.

[Mike]

A Note to the Other 3 or 4 People Who Read This Blog

Please don't let these back and forth conversations (which I dislike immensely) deter you from sharing your thoughts on the subject (the original post or anything that has come out of it.)

PLEASE.

[george]

My issue with you Tim, is that you have as much said that Stephen Lewis will enter the Kingdom and your reasons for that. That is what I am challenging, because it goes to the nuts and bolts of the Christian faith and I believe what you have put forward in your assertion about him is salvation by works, at least for some.

You have yet to back that up with any teachings of Christ and so I press you on that. That's all.

When we receive God's grace that will show up in our actions. If there are no actions one has to wonder about the validity of the faith. But the actions never justify.

You got me thinking about the blog thing again, but I know I won't, it would take up too much of my time, I just know it. My heart is in the inner city and sharing the Gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ with so many people who have been written off by the rest of society, but I know not by God. I'm getting more involved in that and a blog would just get in the way of that.

I enjoy the dialogue though, especially with those with whom I disagree, I'm learning a lot. Its also an opportunity to defend what I know to be true, Pharisee labels and all.

I am beginning to appreciate God's love more and more and the sacrifice of the cross and what God has done for me personally and what I know He desires to do in the lives of others, He is so patient, so when I read stuff that contradicts the sacrifice of the cross I find myself having to challenge that.

[robert]

Too bad Tim, I was really rooting for you to win that whole "justification by works" argument. You have NO idea how much I was rooting for you.

[Tim]

To return to Mike's original point...

He and I were both at Gordon Fee's outstanding series of lectures on Galatians at Regent this summer. Fee showed so very well that whatever else Paul may have been doing, he emphatically was not discouraging Christians from doing good! But the issue, in Paul's mind, was not 'works of the law' (by which he meant circumcision, food laws, and sabbath observance), but being transformed into the character of God by the Spirit, as in Gal. 5:22-23.

The verse that brings it all together in Galatians, as far as I'm concerned, is 5:6: 'for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything: the only thing that counts is faith working through love'.

'Faith working through love' - that just about sums up my view of what the Christian life is all about.

Gotta go out now and do some love works...

[Elaine]

It was worth reading through all the comments for several reasons, but especially to get to the next to last line:

"Faith working through love..." Thanks, Tim.

Elaine

[Mike]

Ironically I'm in the middle of Willard's The Spirit of the Disciplines, and I'm just at the part where he is highlighting Paul as the ultimate spiritual discipline practioner for the purpose of transformation. Very cool.

[george]

Faith in what Tim? In Christ Jesus right?
Is there any other valid Truth? Its only Jesus right?

Note Robert's comment Tim. What would you have to say to someone like Robert about Jesus Christ? Robert's rooting for you Tim, maybe because like many many people Robert so wants it to be true that his good works and being a good person will be sufficient for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.

I appreciate your comment Robert and maybe its interesting for you to read the back and forth between Tim and I. What it comes down to is truth, its all about truth.
Tim says : "'whether virtuous unbelievers might one day get a surprise through the generosity of God'."
But the truth is that clearly goes against Jesus' teachings because He says that He is the only way. To reject Jesus is to reject eternal life. That is Truth. Those who hear the Gospel and reject it are condemmed already. I didn't say that Jesus did. But that is a truth that people do not want to hear these days and some in the Christian faith in their zeal to please everyone and to be accepted by the world would water that part down and not at all even mention it for fear of offending.

But again I ask, what is truth? What is the Truth about Jesus Christ?

John 8: "The Truth Will Set You Free
31So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 33They answered him, "We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, 'You will become free'?"

34Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave[b] to sin. 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father."

Its only in Jesus Christ that one can find freedom and eternal life. That is the truth.

[robert]

George,
With all due respect, it is the truth as you BELIEVE it be as is your right. Please respect others' right to believe otherwise. I have never asked you to preach so I am asking you to cut it out.
Your beliefs may prompt you to think it is your obligation to speak your truth at every opportunity but rest assured, your approach has done more to turn me off than anyone in a long time and simply reinforced my previous view of Christians.
My previous comment was a joke. I believe you are ALL wrong and when you die, you will be dead and that's all folks so please don't think I am actually hoping Tim defeats you in some kind of final battle to save my soul. I don't believe any of you will have eternal life but at least Mike and his crew are doing some good while they are here. That, and the free paperclips are the only reason I hang out here.
You really should start your own blog because, despite what you may think, judging by the length of your comments you seem to have loads of free time.

[george]

Loads of free time today you're right. Bottom line is truth Robert and can we know it. You would suggest we can't and believe we die and that's it. What's the purpose of your life do you think. Its all meaningless by your way of thinking.

Proclaiming Jesus Christ as the only way is not popular these days that's for sure (even on some Christian blogs) but it doesn't make it any less true.

I respect other peoples right to believe what they want but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

Just look around at our Canadian society Robert and the mess we are in. Everything is unravelling at the seams, the newspapers are full of that. What is the reason for that do you think? Why are we, such a prosperous nation going down the tubes? We are moving farther and farther away from God and his ways that's why. Its just so clear. We were founded on Christian principles, our Charter still acknowledges the sovereignty of God but you would never know that by looking around our nation. All the ways of God are being abandoned and look at the results. Its not going to get any better if we don't turn back to God as individuals and as a country.

There's always hope though Robert. That hope is only found in Jesus Christ.